WHY I LEFT MY CHURCH pt 2

WHY I LEFT MY CHURCH

Part 2

Hey! Wow! You came back! Thanks….

I have been pondering a few things for the past few days.

This why I left my church stuff… Does anyone really care?

Where am I going with this blog and what is its purpose?

Am I just blowing off steam or is there a greater reason?

Am I starting to sound vindictive and self righteous in my stories?

How do the readers perceive me?

What is clear to me is my desire for Gods truth.

I mean the kind of truth that when you hear it, it hurts.

Why? Because it shines a light into your very soul and reveals those hidden, deep dark secrets and issues that plague you like cockroaches that just won’t die.

I long for truth, I’ve told far too many lies in my life.

I long for purity. I truly want to live for Christ without mixture.

Jesus says in John 17:17,

Sanctify them in the (in the - through thy) truth; Your word is truth.

Sanctify means to separate from profane things and dedicate to God.

This is really important.

Jesus is praying to the Father asking Him to sanctify YOU.

To separate YOU from profane things and to dedicate YOU to God.

So we really need to ask, how does God sanctify?

Through truth. By YOU being and remaining in the TRUTH.

What is truth? Well, according to Jesus, truth is the word of God.

Truth is Jesus, the living Word.

Truth is the Word of God, revealed to us in the bible.

If this is so, then we must dig into the bible and search for the truth that separates us from profane things. 

Profane means to make common, defile, pollute.

Is that what you want?

To be common, to be defiled, to be polluted?

Ephesians 5:26 and 27 says…

27 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

27 that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Don’t you want to be clean?

Allow yourself to be washed clean by the word of God.

The Psalmist tells us in Psalm 119:97

O how I love Your law! It is my meditation all the day.

I love your law…

That which points out what is wrong within me, in order for God to put what is right within me…

Ya, that is what this blog is about. Digging up the soil of my heart.

So, let us continue the adventure…

WHY I LEFT MY CHURCH pt 2

Did God create the world in six 24 hour days or did God start something and then let it evolve to where it presently exists?

Did God create the first man and woman exactly as stated in Genesis?

Did God speak into existence all that exists in the exact way the bible states, and at the exact moment?

Was there ever a literal Garden of Eden?

Can the start and the progression of events as stated in the bible, especially its first book, Genesis, be trusted?

In this postmodern world that we live in, I guess the answer whether true or not, is totally up to you.

But, in the world of faith, which every true born again believer is to live, the bible is totally true and reliable, just like its Creator.

Psalm 119:160 says...

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

The above passage is an assertion.

An assertion is defined as a positive, firm statement or declaration, often without support or reason. A positive, firm statement, usually made without an attempt at furnishing evidence.

Before postmodernism, a Christian would say that Psalm 119:160 is literally true and that it can be fully trusted.
That our understanding of Gods word can be firm, faithful, truthful, sure, reliable, stable from the top, summit, upper part, chief, total, sum. In other words, the bible can be trusted and its meaning positively declared from the top to the bottom, from the beginning to the end and everything in between.

Postmodernist don’t like assertions, especially when it comes to interpreting what the bible says.

When it comes to biblical interpretation, a postmodernist will say that one can only assume to understand what the bible is really saying.

To assume is to take for granted or suppose. hypothesis, conjecture, guess, postulate, theory.

To a postmodernist, to assert that one would be able to properly, correctly and absolutely positively interpret the scriptures, is in fact an act of arrogance and such interpretations are really only an assumption.

Postmodernist say that we really can’t be sure what God is saying or what God actually means. After all, God is so much bigger and wiser than we are and how could we mere humans possibly ever state absolute truth in Gods name, through the scriptures...

To take a bible passage like Genesis 2:

1 THUS the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made earth and heaven.

Now is that how it happened or did God create in some other way than what we are told?

For centuries, the above passage has been interpreted as God created the world in six 24 hour days. Simple huh?

Well, a postmodernist says that you have to add something to the bible in order to understand what it is really saying.

What is that you ask? The addition is science.

They say that science, which is proven to be true, tells us that the world is billions of years old, so the bible has to be interpreted in the light of what science tells us.

In addition to this, postmodernism focuses on what is said in Genesis 1:1 In the beginning…

Traditionally, “In the beginning” is asserted to be “at the exact moment.” Remember, postmodernist don’t like assertions, so they interpret “in the beginning” as being over a long period of time. Perhaps even a long, long, long, billions of year’s time.

Thus, “in the beginning” means that God did NOT create the world in six 24 hour days.

So what’s the big deal?

The big deal is postmodernist say that the first three words in the bible can not be positively interpreted! They say that you can not make a positive assertion that God created in six 24 hour days!

If this is so, then logic will tell us that the rest of the bible can also NOT be positively interpreted. And if this is true, then practically none of the bible can be preached or taught assertively with positive, life changing, God glorifying assurance and conviction. That is, unless science backs it up.

Are you confused yet? Well, that is exactly what postmodernist want you to be. What did the serpent say to Eve? He said, did God really say? Like the serpent in the Garden of Eden, postmodernist not only want to get you to question Gods word, they want you to doubt that you can understand Gods word.

They want to get you to the place where you must rely on them to interpret Gods word for you.

I am not saying that everyone has the proper interpretation of the scriptures. What I am saying is that the scriptures can be positively and assertively interpreted even if you never went to a seminary or bible school.

So what does this have to do with why I left my church?

Most of what I have and will be talking about in this blog is what my old church believes. Even worse, the church that I left will NOT tell you the following.

The pastor does NOT believe in a 6 24 hour day creation.

The pastor does believe that even though God created man, it did not happen as Genesis states.

The pastor says that God did create a “man” like being, but it was through a process of evolution which took place over thousands and thousands of years.

The pastor says that God brought these “man” like beings to a point in time where he said, Now, you are man.

What is pathetic and deceptive about this is that this information, even though the other pastors and elders are aware of his beliefs, is being withheld from the congregation.

What is even more pathetic and deceptive is that if you would go to their web site, you would read the following…

My comments are in parentheses.

In the beginning, God spoke and everything came into existence.

(WHAT THEY DON’T TELL YOU IS THAT IT TOOK BILLIONS OF YEARS FOR GOD TO CREATE EVERYTHING.)

By His command, the entire universe was created and filled with a dramatic display of galaxies, stars, and planets-including Earth, on which was a perfect Garden of Eden.

(BUT NOT IN THE TIMELINE THAT THE BIBLE GIVES)

 Of all the beauty He created, the masterpiece was a man and a woman. God made Adam and Eve in His image to reflect Him.

(WHAT THEY DON’T TELL YOU IS THAT GOD FIRST CREATED “MAN LIKE BEINGS” AND THAT IT TOOK MILLIONS OF YEARS BEFORE HE DECLARED THEM TO BE MAN.)

They were created with the grand purpose of worshiping Him by loving Him, serving Him, and enjoying relationship with Him.

(BUT IT TOOK BILLIONS OF YEARS TO GET YOU TO THAT POINT. UNLESS YOU COUNT EATING BANANAS AND SWINGING FROM TREES LOVING, SERVING AND ENJOYING A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM)

How do I know what the pastor believes?

He told me himself.

Here is how the sequence of events played out.

The church started searching for a new pastor.

They of course started a search committee.

Months went by as they wanted to spend much time in prayer seeking Gods leading and discernment.

Letters went out and resumes started coming in.

Again, over a period of months, the list was narrowed down to just a few candidates. Then down to just 2.

Finding out who the favorite was, I went to his then present churches web site and listened to a few of the Sunday messages.

One in particular sparked my interest. It was about creation.

After listening to it FIVE TIMES I still could not figure out what exactly he was saying. This fact should serve as a warning to any believer. Teaching should be simple and easy for the hearer to understand.

Well, having some concerns I went to one of the pastors at my church and shared my concerns with him. Surprisingly, he was gracious and shared that some of the other pastors and members had the same concern. He then told me that the teaching in question had been assigned to one of the best known, loved and respected elders for close examination. The pastor also mentioned that there would be a church meeting where the congregation can ask the pastor candidate some questions. He said that a certain elder is collecting the questions for the event, so why don’t I give my questions to him.

 The Elders opinion?

He did not find anything in the teaching that went against scripture. Now to give this elder some grace, I myself could not really understand what the pastor candidate was actually saying. All I know is that not only didn’t it sit right with me, the fact that the teaching was so muddled and confusing concerned me deeply. I am not aware if this elder sought out the candidate teacher to question him directly as I did.

Well, I took the pastors advice and emailed the certain elder the following…

NOTE: both emails are edited to protect identities.

I am not seeking to destroy or tear down this church. I am only seeking for truth and to tell my story.

I have two questions that I would like you to ask on Friday...

1. Do you believe in a literal 6 day creation as stated in Genesis 1?

2. Do you believe that the creation of man and woman as stated in Genesis 2:7 and Genesis 2:21-22 is literally what God did or do you believe that man came into existence through a process of evolution?

The reason that I am seeking the answers to these particular questions is because I think that he was possibly alluding to the possibility of evolution concerning the "creation" of man.

Thanks for considering to ask these questions,

Peace,

Here are portions of the response.

My comments for this blog are in italics.

Several of us have listened to that sermon.  He states that God is/was the Creator, but, I think, left it open to “how” he did it.

Gee, I thought he already said that he didn’t do it the way the bible says he did it.

There was no heresy there that anyone could discern.  , in particular, spent some time analyzing what he was saying. I’d agree that God could do it any way he wanted, as I mentioned in S.S. 2 weeks ago.

So God can lie about the way that He did it according to the bible but really do it another way?

 Generally speaking, I would have reminded us/you that is a member of the , who have several key sayings that govern how we operate.  The one I’m thinking of is “in the essentials, unity; in the non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity”.  So…..I believe we know the “essentials” that are required for salvation.  Within our denomination and (even) our church we disagree significantly on non-essentials e.g. eschatology, Arminianism vs Calvinism, worship styles, spiritual gifts, etc. etc.etc.  I would venture to say that there is not a single person within     that would agree totally with my stance on all theological positions.  So…..what do we do???  Practice liberty and charity.

I was asking 2 specific questions about creation as stated in the bible. I never brought up the question of salvation, nor did I question anyone’s salvation. We may know the “essentials” that are required for salvation, but is a pure, proper and historical interpretation of the scriptures an essential or are the scriptures open to anyone’s interpretation? What about Rob Bell and his book Love Wins? Can we honestly say that eventually everyone goes to Heaven when the bible states otherwise?

 Charity/love.  Jesus knew we’d have many differences, and therefore told us “love” had to be our key interpersonal virtue. 

Seriously? That’s why God told us to love one another?

 I Cor 13: 5-7 states it well.  We are to “not jump immediately to thinking evil of someone, bear all things, believe all things, hope all things, endure all things, etc”.  Dealing with differences apart from the essentials of the faith are to be governed by these attitudes/actions.  My concern is that I sense yourself and     immediately going out to find something you disagree with in a given person, the current one being         .  I would ask you to examine your motives in doing so.  Are you being governed by love as described above, or something else?  Your answer is an important one. 

Since when is questioning someone’s theology “thinking evil” of someone? Truthfully, I am being governed by a love for God, a love and desire for doctrinal purity and the ability to question someone’s theology without being attacked and belittled. The reaction from this Chairman of the Elder board demonstrates the behavior of the postmodern leadership when they are questioned. They attack and accuse.

 I hear somewhat regularly from a small number of people, because of a variety of differences in the non-essentials of the faith, that we must cut off cooperation or relationship with that person or this organization.  This approach to dealing with differences comes, from my limited historical knowledge, out of a Fundamentalist approach to theological differences.  Fundamentalism teaches, among other things, that if you disagree with even one aspect of another’s theology, you must separate yourself from them.  Hence, in the 60’s and 70’s the movement to separate from Billy Graham.  We are not fundamentalists, as those who strictly go down this path eventually find that there is no one left to fellowship with.  As I said, I wouldn’t be able to worship with anyone at      if we went point by point over our various theologies. 

This elder obviously has a very negative attitude against fundamental belief.  Postmodernist define fundamentalism as being extremist.                                       Simply believing the creation story as stated in the bible, which was once held as a common belief among the Christian community, is now an act of extremism.  

 Going back to your question, I guess I’d like to know what you feel is the “right” answer.   

Once again, postmodernist say that there are no “right” answers, only assumptions.      

   

  I personally believe in the literal 6 day creation story, but when I ask myself if there will be people in heaven who disagree with me on that, I’d have to answer “yes”.  Hopefully I don’t have to fellowship with them up there…..JUST kidding.    Not once did I ever bring up the idea of who goes or does not go to Heaven. Not once did I ever question the new pastor’s salvation.

 Please do not misunderstand me.  I am not minimizing your concern for doctrinal purity.  We strive to maintain that in every way possible.  But I AM concerned as to the motivation for your examination and questions.  

Seriously? You strive to maintain doctrinal purity? How does one maintain doctrinal purity unless the doctrine is examined and questioned and explained? I am amazed as to how a few simple yes or no questions can create such a huge concern. Wasn’t  my motivation clearly stated in my email to the elder?  Seems to me that one of their policies is “if you can’t answer the question, attack the questioner.” 

Do they come out of love as described in I Cor 13, or as a vehicle to find a way to condemn and separate. Tough comments, but ones I truly am saying in love. 

Uh, how about they come out of a desire for some simple answers? Is this guy afraid that if my questions “come out” then the members of the congregation that know the truth of the scriptures and truly desire doctrinal purity will condemn wrong teaching and separate themselves from such wrong teaching? Oh, those darn fundamentalist!

 I really do appreciate you and your love for scripture.   

Ya, it gives you someone to try to judge, intimidate and bully.

 Obviously, if I’ve gone right over the edge in my analysis & assumptions, please straighten me out.  I’ve not been wrong yet in my life, but there’s always a first time….  

 Straighten you out how? Especially since you have never been wrong yet in your life?

Well, that’s it in a nutshell. I want you blog readers to know that I prayed long and hard over sharing the email from this elder. I do not in anyway desire to defame or condemn. I only want to share my experiences with you. It is a sad, sad thing when believers can not sit down with each other and discuss with Christian love their differences without the questioning side being bullied, accused and judged. I also want to make it clear that the new pastor is a very intelligent and gracious man. He was very open, straightforward and candid with me about his beliefs. I was the one who could not sit under his teachings as I find the Genesis story to be foundational and its proper interpretation essential to believing, understanding and applying what the rest of the bible has to say. Another reason that I could not continue to sit under his teaching is that the leadership at this church is hiding the pastors beliefs from the congregation and further attendees.

Now my adventure with the church BEFORE the new pastor came is a whole nudder story, (new word) and it will explain in greater detail my adamant attitude towards clear scriptural interpretation and its applications. 

Well, that’s it for now, watch for part 3 coming in a few days.

But, before I go, would you like to know if YOU are a fundamentalist?

Do you agree with the following?

From a Bible conference of Conservative Protestants meeting in Niagara in 1895, a statement was issued containing what came to be known as the five points of fundamentalism:

1 The verbal inerrancy of Scripture.

2 The divinity of Jesus Christ.

3. The virgin birth.

4. A substitutionary theory of the atonement.

5. The physical resurrection and bodily return of Christ.

So, what are ya? A fundamentalist or a modernist?

For a more complete explanation of “What is a fundamentalist,” I offer you this link.

http://www.victorious.org/chur21.htm